Dialogue with Arweave core contributor and everVision CEO: Talking about the future division of labor among Ethereum, Bitcoin and Arweave

Written by: Sunny, Bella & Zolo, coderworld

Guest: outprog.ar, CEO of everVision

“We can think of Arweave + AO as truly implementing a full-featured computer, in contrast to Ethereum’s limitations of only being able to perform on-chain computations through the EVM.”

— outprog.ar, everVision CEO

“There are so many people watching.”

In andXiong WeiI felt this way especially after chatting with my teacher (@outprog_ar).

Web3 builder activities are always dazzling. After attending many conferences, I always feel that my time has been wasted. Although I met many new friends and was surrounded by many new concepts and technologies at various conferences and hackathons, it is difficult to draw a more constructive conclusion based on personal experience alone. For example,BlockchainWhat is the general structure of the industry? Web3 built on it seems to be no different on each network.BlockchainThey are all competing in a homogeneous manner, doing the same thing.

The recent Ethereum Dencun upgrade is a hot topic. Everyone is discussing “What will happen to Ethereum and other public blockchains after the Dencun upgrade?”BlockchainHow different is it?" There is a lot of debate going on, but few people would give an answer that is close to the truth.

In the over-labeled CT (crypto In the twitter, there seems to be an illusion: Bitcoin network can also build Web3, Ethereum can also be comprehensive, DeFi, AI, social networking, Depin, and various applications are not a problem. Near is the abstract layer of all chains, and Doge can also create a "network city". Readers who often lack critical thinking ability (including the author) will have the experience of reading a lot of information and not knowing what is happening, so they simply immerse themselves in the atmosphere of CT.

Professor Xiong Wei is an early contributor to Arweave and proposed many concepts in the network, including the "storage-based consensus paradigm", or SCP theory. The proposal of this theory is based on critical thinking about the differences between different blockchains.

“We believe that from the perspective of Bitcoin’s UTXO model, data must reflect its context.

In contrast, Ethereum maintains a global state ledger, and we can know the current state of the ledger even without past history.

In emphasizing decentralization, Arweave focuses more on the process rather than the results themselves.

The content that needs to be permanently stored is basically any information that needs to reach consensus.

Arweave is a permanent storage platform based on blockchain technology. Perhaps, after reading Mr. Xiong’s explanation of the differences between Ethereum, Bitcoin, and Arweave, you will have a clearer understanding of this industry, and perhaps better understand the differences between the underlying technical divisions of each network, and it will also be easier to browse and identify information in CT.

everVision is a product based on the technological enlightenment brought by Arweave, and its core products will be explained and introduced in detail at the end of the interview.

Hopefully, after reading this, you’ll have a more critical understanding of the industry we’re in.

The following is a conversation between Xiaobai Navigation and Xiong Wei (outprog.ar). GPT Improved the modified syntax, may be slightly different from the original version.

Joining Arweave and founding everVision: “I realized that the complex systems and work I was doing in banks could be solved with just 200 lines of code in Bitcoin or Ethereum”

Coderworld: First of all, I would like to know your background. Why did you choose to focus on Arweave? Community, rather than other blockchain networks? Also, as the CEO of everVision, I’d love to hear how you got involved with Arweave CommunityThe whole process of starting and then founding your own Web3 company.

outprog:

I initially worked in a traditional bank for five years. At that time, I was in Tianjin and my life was very stable. However, around 2017, I discovered blockchain, which had a huge impact on me.

I realized that the complex systems and work I had done in banks could be solved in just 200 lines of code in Bitcoin or Ethereum.

Therefore, I decided to devote myself to the blockchain industry, sent my resume to blockchain companies all over the country, and finally joined a company. Then I moved to Hangzhou with my family.

My transformation was because I saw the opportunity for innovation in blockchain as an emerging industry. I joined imToken and began to study and research DeFi in depth. I was probably one of the first authors to write articles about Uniswap and Compound. When Uniswap was first launched, I was very excited to write about its principles. At that time, many people came to me to discuss ideas about starting a business and developing DeFi applications.

Later, I became more and more aware of the pain points of the industry, especially that ordinary users found this field difficult to use. Therefore, I switched from imToken to Arweave, hoping to solve these problems by changing the technical paradigm.

My ultimate goal is to enable everyone to use blockchain to reorganize production and consumption relationships in a decentralized manner.

Another motivation for starting a business came during the DeFi Summer, when financial pressure was relatively low. My partner, Xiaojie, and I started our project together. We were very excited about the Arweave model, wrote code together, and created everPay. Initially, we did not plan to raise funds, but after releasing the product and publishing articles on Chain News, we received attention from investment institutions such as IOSG and began to consider the possibility of financing. This prompted us to resolve long-term development and deepen the Arweave ecosystem.

Through my three years of working at imToken, I have observed that many users find it very difficult to use blockchain.

• First, a major obstacle is the management of mnemonics and keys. Many users have lost their mnemonics and keys and are unable to recover their assets.

• The second obstacle is the high fees of Ethereum, especially when trading on our DEX products, where users may only need to pay a $5 fee to exchange $10 worth of assets, which is very confusing and difficult for users to accept.walletThe company’s experience has made us realize that these issues are too unfriendly for ordinary users.

In July 2020, during the DeFi Summer, I learned about Arweave through a friend’s introduction, and met Zeng Mi and Miao Shu at the Spark Mining Pool in Hangzhou. They are senior employees of the Spark Mining Pool and also Etherfans. CommunityThrough them, I became interested in the Arweave project. As a storage blockchain, Arweave's storage cost is not high compared to Ethereum.

So we started thinking about whether Arweave could be used as a computer hard drive or storage device for future applications.

Our computing process does not necessarily need to be carried out on the chain, it can be completed off the chain, but because Arweave's hard drive is immutable and traceable, even off-chain calculations can form a certain consensus and verifiability.

Based on this point of view, we believe that if there is a storage-based blockchain like Arweave, the future application experience can be very close to the Web2 experience.

Since July 2020, I have been studying Arweave and exploring whether we can develop some products on it to lower the user threshold. The product we developed, everPay, aims to solvewalletWe also hope to remove the need for mnemonics in the future so that users can use FIDO Our core goal is to make it easy for ordinary users to use blockchain.

everPay can be understood as a service similar to Alipay, but it provides an experience close to Alipay, and all ledger records are stored on Arweave in a decentralized way. Although such Alipay is still centralized to some extent, since the ledger is public, everyone can verify its records. For users, this is enough.

In the past year, I proposed a theory called SCP (Storage-based Consensus Paradigm).

The core idea of the theory is that as long as the storage is immutable and traceable, the computation performed on it is trustworthy and decentralized.

In October 2020, I left imToken and founded everVision in November. Since then, we have been working on everPay, a payment network product based on Arweave.

Arweave to AO: The Origin of Modular Blockchain

coderworld: I see. When you mentioned that Arweave was not decentralized enough, do you mean that the off-chain computing process was not transparent and well-known enough?

outprog:

In fact, the reason why we failed to achieve full decentralization at that time was because of our roll-up mechanism, the Sequencer. In everPay, the Sequencer is actually unique, which means that all transactions need to go through our gateway and then upload to Arweave. This is why decentralization was not complete at that time.

Of course, this problem has now been solved by Arweave AO.

coderworld: Could you please introduce us first? AO What is it?

outprog:

After I proposed SCP (Storage Consensus Paradigm), practically all applications on Arweave were developed using this model.contractWhether it is a blockchain, a network hard drive, or building a gateway to provide storage services, everyone provides computing resources off-chain and only uses Arweave as a network hard drive. During the two years of development, many SCP-based applications have been born.

However, one of the challenges we encounter is that communication between applications is very difficult, especially when we want different applications to interoperate. I would also like to add that SCP is similar to inscriptions and actually appeared earlier than inscriptions. The difference between the two is that we write data to Arweave, while inscriptions are written to Bitcoin. Whether it is inscriptions or SCP applications, communication between them is very difficult. When verifying the data of the other party's node, I need to run all the data of the entire node to achieve interoperability and communication.

The original intention of AO was actually to solve the problem of communication between applications.

Last July, in Berlin, Germany, I and representatives from WARP, the developers of the SCP application, met with Sam (Arweave Founder) discussed how to solve the trust problem between our two applications. At that time, we designed a message protocol, which can be regarded as the predecessor of the AO system. This system aims to solve the communication problem.

At the end of last year, Sam made a new design and created the current AO system, which was implemented in recent months. We found that AO can not only solve the communication problem between SCP applications, but it is also a global, hybrid super parallel computer. Our original SCP applications, such as our everPay and WARP, will be transformed into a thread or process in this supercomputer, allowing us to achieve mutual communication and trusted computing in this system.

In addition, although AO was originally designed to solve communication problems, it can actually build a completely decentralized distributed computing network. In this network, whether it is a user, a robot or other program, it can request other threads to perform calculations, as if multiple computing units are providing computing power for the program.

Therefore, we can consider AO to truly implement an all-powerful computer, which contrasts with the limitation that Ethereum can only perform on-chain computing through EVM.

In the AO system, all computing resources are decentralized and globalized. We can outsource computing tasks to any computing unit or part of the computing units.

The way data is stored determines the different division of labor between Arweave, Bitcoin and Ethereum in the future

coderworld: From this explanation, Arweave plus AO is equivalent toDistributed computingIt opens up new possibilities, allowing people to not only store data, but also perform calculations. You also mentioned the comparison with Ethereum before, and I would like to know, at the technical level, what is the difference between Arweave with AO and Ethereum?

outprog:First, the main difference is that Ethereum integrates disk (hard disk) with computation, which means that Ethereum's virtual machine (EVM) contains both computing units (CPU) and storage. Of course, the recent ConsenSys upgrade may have made some cuts to the storage part, but that's another topic.

As for Arweave and AO, they were designed to be separate. From the beginning, Sam did not consider any computing functions when designing Arweave.

Our goal is simply to create a completely decentralized, global storage hard drive.

AO is a new system that has gradually developed on this basis under the influence of SCP, and the functions of the two systems are completely separated. AO is almost not involved in the management of any permanent storage or block storage, and Arweave will not handle any computing tasks.

If described using the terminology widely known in the blockchain industry, this model is actually a modular blockchain.

Although the concept of modular blockchain may originate from the Ethereum ecosystem, Arweave did not directly propose modular blockchain, but based on the SCP architecture, our design can be regarded as the ultimate form of modular blockchain.

coderworld: So what you mean is that as Ethereum completes its Dencun Upgrade and the sharding technology of "Ethereum 2.0", it will move more and more towards separating storage and computing, and its state will gradually become similar to Arweave, right?

outprog:

When researching Ethereum in 2020, we noticed that Ethereum plans to implement version 2.0 with 64 shards and a beacon chain. If this model continues to develop, its structure will be more similar to Arweave's model.

However, according to recent developments, especially in light of Ethereum’s Danksharding upgrade, it will actually eviscerate some historical data.

Therefore, Ethereum may no longer retain permanent storage of data in the future. From this upgrade, Ethereum and Arweave, and even Bitcoin, will take completely different paths.

coderworld: I think it's very interesting that you mentioned that Ethereum may not store data permanently in the future. As a member of the Arweave development community, what do you think of the idea of permanent data storage? Specifically, what data needs to be stored permanently?

outprog:

We believe that from the perspective of Bitcoin's UTXO model, data must reflect its context.

In contrast, Ethereum maintains a global state ledger, and we can know the current state of the ledger even without past history.

In emphasizing decentralization, Arweave focuses more on the process rather than the results themselves.

The content that needs to be permanently stored is basically any information that needs to reach consensusFor example, if we develop a decentralized social application, the content posted by users on the application, or whether that content can be transformed into tradable assets in the future, needs to be permanently preserved because they involve the needs of transactions and consensus.

On Ethereum, it may be found that some content will eventually be lost because Ethereum mainly records the latest state of the ledger.

So, for applications like decentralized finance (DeFi), it might be feasible to throw away some data, since the focus is primarily on the current settlement status.

However, for social, gaming, and other applications that require decentralization, retaining historical data becomes critical because this data may have value in the future.

By using Arweave plus AO’s model, we can make every sentence or every data point tradable.

Similarly, in the field of artificial intelligence, for training AI The model’s raw data and completed work should be permanently preserved so that profit distribution can be realized in the future. Without these credentials, profit sharing cannot be carried out; without credentials, only platforms such as TikTok, Facebook, and Twitter can obtain profits. They control the collection of user data and the value generated.

In order for value to directly benefit users, users must have credentials at the data generation end, which requires consensus and permanent storage of data.

coderworld: So, in your opinion, in terms of application scenarios, Ethereum may mainly serve to DeFi field, while Arweave supports a wider range of application scenarios, such as AI And social. For Bitcoin, as its use as an inscribed data store increases, do you think Bitcoin will move beyond its role as a pure store of value?

outprog:

The inscriptions are all made by Chinese people. In fact, they are not so popular in Europe and the United States. This is the first point. The second point is that the storage of Bitcoin itself is very expensive, so it is still very difficult to store the process. I think Bitcoin inscriptions will just be hyped for a while and then it will be over.

Then the second is that Bitcoin itself does not need any functions, it is just gold.

Gold is almost useless in industry, except for jewelry. So Bitcoin is definitely the most valuable, and it has the strongest consensus. I don’t think inscriptions will necessarily bring anything to Bitcoin, but it may attract some from Bitcoin, or create some bubbles from the relatively large consensus of Bitcoin.

coderworld: Indeed, 1 GB Storing data on Ethereum may cost about $30 million, while storing the same amount of data on Bitcoin is more expensive. You mentioned on Twitter before that Arweave has the potential to be an Ethereum “killer”. We discussed that the division of labor between the three systems may be different: Bitcoin may becomeElectronic MoneyArweave could be the anchor for the application layer, while Ethereum could be the anchor for the future financial sector. If we talk about “killers” or competition, you seem to have a very compelling argument.

outprog:

In fact, what I said on Twitter was not that Arweave was the "killer" of Ethereum. What I said was that for the computing field, the final form of Ethereum may be similar to Arweave's initial sharding design. The discussion of the so-called "Ethereum killer" actually originated from an activity discussion within the community.

So there is a difference between those two things: I am publicly discussing the future development of Ethereum in terms of computing, which is based on technical considerations.

I strongly agree with the division of labor among these three platforms, and I believe that Ethereum is undoubtedly the strongest in terms of verification and financial applications, especially DeFi. Arweave is more suitable for handling applications such as social media and decentralized games.

Therefore, the term “killer” is more of a label created by the community for publicity purposes to attract attention, and it is not the point I want to emphasize.

Leveraging Arweave's Evolved Storage Consensus Paradigm: Turing Machines, Von Neumann Architecture, and Ethereum Virtual Machines

Coderworld: Let us stop focusing on topics that are overly labeled by the media and return to SCP(Storage consensusParadigm) in the discussion. Since you are the originator of the SCP concept, could you elaborate on this concept in more detail? I am deeply interested in the background when you proposed this concept, including your personal thinking, humanistic considerations, and what exactly SCP is on the technical level?

outprog:

Maybe it will be a little bit on the technical side, as computer science graduates, we all have our first lesson in computers, which included the concept of Turing machines.

The Turing machine is a basic computational model that consists essentially of an infinitely long piece of paper tape and a state machine that puts dots on the tape, with each dot representing either 0 or 1. As long as the state machine keeps putting dots, this simple system can perform any operation.

When I learned about Arweave, I immediately thought of the concept of Turing machines and computing. If the paper tape of a Turing machine is compared to Arweave, it means that our state machine and the computer itself are trustworthy because every point it records on the blockchain is formed by consensus and cannot be tampered with.

This model allows us to return to the simple principle of Turing machine from the current more complex computer models, such as EVM or the computers based on von Neumann architecture that we use in daily life. Von Neumann architecture makes computers more suitable for engineering by adding displays, input and output devices, hard disks, memory and CPUs, and finally forms the computer structure we use now.

But at its core, it's all a combination of basic paper tape and state machines.

Therefore, after learning about Arweave, I think our blockchain computing does not actually need to rely on the von Neumann architecture or the EVM architecture. We just need to think of it as a storage unit, and the computing unit can be located on each of our handheld devices or personal computers.

In July 2020, when I first learned about Arweave, we envisioned a future where computing devices would become just computing terminals, and all programs could be downloaded from Arweave or other blockchains. All the information and communications we send would be conducted through storage blockchains like Arweave.

Eventually, Arweave will become a global hard drive, and each of our devices, whether it is my Mac or your computer, will become a computing terminal for the data on this hard drive. This model is very similar to a Turing machine, and all devices only need to read and write data to the blockchain.

In this way, trustlessness and decentralization can be achieved between all devices because the storage hard drive itself is decentralized.

In what situations does it make sense to combine AI and blockchain?

coderworld: At present, we have also seen some AI projects, they are compatible EVM, and is committed to the allocation of decentralized computing resources. What do you think of these projects' attempts to allocate and coordinate decentralized computing resources for AI projects in the Ethereum ecosystem?

outprog:

First, based on our own investment fund experience, we observed that when OpenAI first appeared, a number of AI projects emerged, but we did not invest in any of them. Then, we noticed that the founders of these projects actually moved on to other things.

This is a lesson learned from experience: we have found that many AI projects focused on Web3 are actually just trying to leverage AI andcryptocurrencyto promote themselves by taking advantage of the popularity of a platform, hoping to create some hype or build an ecosystem, however, many of these visions are actually difficult to achieve.

Regarding the AI projects you mentioned in the Ethereum ecosystem, especially those that claim to be compatible with Ethereum and are committed to decentralized computing resource allocation, and the views on these projects optimizing the distribution and coordination of computing resources within the Ethereum ecosystem, my view is that most investors, including rational and well-known investors, may be skeptical of such a combination.

Investors like Zhu Xiaohu may have made some comments before. From my personal perspective as a technology professional, these are mainly conceptual things that cannot be truly implemented, and there is no need to link AI withcryptocurrencyCombined together.

coderworld: Do you have any methods for judging successful cases of combining artificial intelligence and blockchain?

outprog:

I think,for AI For applications in the decentralized field, decentralization of the entire industrial chain is necessary, which includes the entire process from data generation to data consumption.

Currently, many AI projects may use Ethereum or other EVM-compatible blockchains to handle data generation and training distribution, such as allowing 100 or 1,000 users to join in data training and record some processes on Ethereum. However, these projects often ignore the data consumption level, and users cannot consume AI services through Ethereum because the cost of on-chain consumption payment is too high.

This leads to a disconnect between production and consumption. Even if consensus data is generated, it is difficult for consumers tointelligentcontractThese data are consumed in the market, thereby realizing the value circulation of the upstream and downstream of the industrial chain.I think this is a huge challenge. However, if we switch to Arweave or off-chain computing mode, or use a permanent storage hard disk, everyone's work and training, including algorithms, can form a consensus on this hard disk. Consumers can also directly call these computing units to obtain calculation results or AI output, thereby achieving seamless connection of the entire industry chain.

Therefore, I believe that to achieve such a model, it is necessary not only to move the calculation off-chain, but also to use storage like Arweave as a consensus infrastructure. The correctness and quality of the data that AI relies on are crucial, and these high-value data need to be permanently stored.

Only by starting again from the data level and ultimately involving consumers can a complete closed loop be formed.

coderworld: For those who are not very familiar with the technology, what is the difference between on-chain computation and off-chain computation?

outprog:

For those who are not familiar with blockchain, they may not know what on-chain computation is. In fact, computation itself does not distinguish between on-chain and off-chain.

The concept of on-chain computing is mainly proposed by Ethereum or Ethereum-like models. However, when we are no longer limited to this concept, especially in the context of Arweave or Web 2.0 applications, everyone is a distributor of computing units, and there is no distinction between on-chain and off-chain.

In fact, at the end of the day, node operations require an off-chain or real-life physical device to perform calculations. Simply put, there is no real decentralized server, because all Ethereum nodes are actually running on Amazon Web Services (AWS), and miners still rely on centralized resources.

This decentralization is actually an abstract concept rather than a physical entity.Therefore, we cannot say there is a decentralized server, we can only say there is decentralized Ethereum and decentralized storage. Decentralized servers do not actually exist. Hopefully this explains my point clearly.

Yes, we can talk about decentralized ledger technology, but just like Bitcoin nodes, it does not mean that there are physically decentralized Bitcoin nodes. Node operations still rely on centralized infrastructure.

Arweave, Filecoin, and attracting users and developers

coderworld: Regarding Arweave, given that its goal is to become a global storage hard drive, we should probably not simply call it a decentralized storage hard drive, but a global storage solution. So, what is the difference between it and Filecoin?

outprog:

For Filecoin, it aims to replace traditional AWS or cloud storage services by building a decentralized market, using blockchain to create an order book-like market that allows users to trade data storage resources in a decentralized manner. Different from this, Arweave's storage is similar to the concept of Bitcoin, which provides an unchangeable and undeletable decentralized data storage service, which is the main difference between them.

Many AI projects, especially those in the Ethereum ecosystem, may use Ethereum, EVM or other blockchain technologies to generate and train data in a distributed manner. However, these projects often ignore the data consumption aspect because the cost of data consumption through Ethereum is too high.

When we talk about decentralized social applications, many existing applications on Ethereum are not actually based entirely on the chain. They may rely on other Layer 2 technologies for support. For example, all data of the Lens protocol is stored on Arweave, allowing data from many social applications in the past few years to be permanently stored.

Ultimately, the full-stack technology solutions provided by Arweave and AO enable developers to quickly develop and deploy applications in a decentralized, low-cost environment. This is extremely attractive to developers, compared to the large amount of money and time required to develop the same application on Ethereum. We believe that more such applications will emerge on AO in the future.

coderworld: Although I don't know much about the technical details, from an outsider's perspective, this field seems to be somewhat politicized, and it seems that you need to choose your position wisely to attract a large enough ecosystem and enough users. In this regard, how should we empower developers to attract more users?

outprog:

From two aspects, it is unlikely that funds in the blockchain ecosystem observed by the outside world will buy Ethereum on a large scale just for value storage. Although there are many developers and users on Ethereum, these are not enough to attract those who hold capital or so-called "old money" to invest on a large scale.

Secondly, it may be quite difficult for developers to transfer from Ethereum to AO ecosystem at the current stage, because a large developer community has been formed on Ethereum. In the past few years, we have encountered similar difficulties when promoting SCP and off-chain computing models.

However, there are some core changes happening now, such as Arweave founder Sam KaiXiaobai NavigationArweave should improve its level in the supply chain, not just as a storage layer, but also provide computing functions. Only when the story of the supply chain is reset or reorganized can it attract developers to join.

There are two reasons why developers join: First, there is a lot of financial support and ecological support behind the ecosystem, and everyone will see the traffic here.

Second, some developers really want to develop applications and find that using Ethereum, EVM, or Solana for development still cannot meet their needs, so they may naturally flow to the Arweave ecosystem.

Back to AI, if Sam himself recognizes the computing layer and starts to promote it, the corresponding capital may also join the cooperation. If this point had not been emphasized before, the capital side may only see Arweave as a storage solution, limiting the scope of its story. It is possible that capital will be able to enter the Arweave ecosystem more effectively in the future and help developers.

The second point is almost indisputable. Just like it is impossible for developers to return to Bitcoin to develop smart contracts on Ethereum. Although it is possible to write smart contracts in Lua or other languages on Arweave, developers will not return to a platform that cannot meet their social application or game needs to develop contracts.

everVision: Building Web3 Stripe = everPay and Arweave #1 DEX = PermaSwap

coderworld: Turning back to your own project, everVision, you mentioned that you have two products: everPay and PermaSwap. You mentioned earlier that everPay is a service similar to the Web3 version of Alipay. Can you elaborate on the relationship between everPay and Arweave and AO? What are its advantages over other payment protocols? What are the special technical advantages of everPay built on Arweave AO?

outprog:

Indeed, everPay was originally created to provide a basic payment function, which is essential everywhere. If payments cannot be made, then value exchange cannot be achieved. However, making payments on platforms such as Ethereum or Bitcoin is very expensive and the threshold is high. Therefore, one of the original intentions of creating everPay is to lower the payment threshold.

Compared to other platforms, such as Ethereum, Solana or BNB Chain, they are all based on the extension of Ethereum or on-chain computing model, so their costs cannot be reduced to the pure algorithm separation model we adopt. On everPay, the actual cost of a payment can be reduced to 0.00004 or 0.00005 US dollars, and this is being further reduced. Although the fees of some second-layer solutions have been reduced to 0.1 or 0.2 US dollars, which is already quite low, they are still not in the same order of magnitude compared to applications based on the SCP paradigm. This is exactly the advantage of the storage paradigm (SCP).

Our core goal is actually because AO itself is like a brand new supply chain, and we hope that Permaswap can occupy the position of the top Dex in our ecosystem. You can think of PermaSwap as Uniswap on Ethereum or PancakeSwap on Binance Smart Chain or the largest Dex on other major blockchains. This is our positioning and expectation for PermaSwap.

coderworld: Currently, there are actually both many and few competitors for Web 3 versions of Stripe like everPay. So, what are the special features in everPay that distinguish it from other competitors?

outprog:

First, everPay introduces a unique feature, the abstract account of the FIDO standard. Users can simply use their mobile phone and email as the identity of the abstract account to generate a completely decentralized account, and the key of this account is completely controlled by the user. This greatly reduces the threshold for users to use it, because they do not need to manage private keys or remember mnemonics, they just need to own the device.

This feature is a major innovation in the Web3 environment, because Web3 currently generally relies on MetaMask and otherwallet, users often face the challenge of managing keys. This is one of our core strengths.

Second, everPay has introduced different basic protocols and payment primitives for payment. For example, we have implemented bundled transactions, which allow many-to-many payment operations at one time. These operations are atomic, which means that if any of the transactions fails, the entire transaction will fail. In the future, everPay will also expand more payment scenarios, which may include payment methods similar to PayPal or automatic deduction functions, which will be gradually realized.

Other issues: RWA and user engagement

coderworld: Given that you are building Web 3.0 I'm curious about your view on physical assets.TokenWhat is your outlook for 2024? TokenThe concept of currencyization may have been first popularized by USDC, whichSmart ContractsThe concept was introduced by attaching it to the dollar. Now, we can see more and more such applications appearing.

不过，以前，尝试Token化如房地产这类资产可能还为时尚早。然而，今年似乎有许多关于 RWA 代币化的项目出现。作为 everPay，您可能将服务于许多此类商家。您对这个领域今年的发展及其未来的发展有何预测？

outprog:

I am actually not particularly optimistic about the field of real-world asset tokenization (RWA). My concerns mainly come from the challenges of compliance. Although all current technologies are able to solve payment problems, the impact of cryptocurrency on the traditional world is too great. Once we are able to tokenize physical assets, or simply digitize national currencies or certain assets, it means that these digitized assets can be quickly converted into Bitcoin, Ethereum or other stablecoins. In this case, why should I hold a centrally backed RWA? This practice seems to encourage people to invest in cryptocurrency transactions to some extent.

Therefore, I think compliance will be a huge obstacle. It has not yet reached a mature stage. Any project that attempts RWA may become a channel for capital outflow. If a country's sovereign currency is not strong enough or encounters risks, users may choose to flow funds out through this channel. Therefore, the road for the development of RWA is still long and it is not easy to handle.

coderworld: As a general user, what methods are there to participate? AO in development?

outprog:

It has become quite easy to participate, especially for developers. For example, it is very easy for a developer to develop an application similar to Discord in three days. These products created by developers can now be used through existing Arweave wallets, and we are also accelerating the adaptation of everID to AO so that people no longer need another wallet. Users can access applications on AO directly from their mobile phones.

So, the way to participate is as described above. At this stage, given that AO has only been running for 3 weeks and the application is still in its infancy, we may need to wait another month or two. In fact, after one or two months, users will be able to start testing or using these applications, which should be a relatively quick process.

Finally: Advice for young people

Coderworld: For today's young people, if they directly enter the blockchain industry, it may be difficult to understand the pain points of traditional industries. Can you tell us what things in banks are troubling?

outprog:

For young people who are currently entering the blockchain industry, it may be difficult for them to understand the pain points of traditional industries. In banks or traditional industries, all accounts are recorded independently. In order to reach a consensus on these accounts,Traditional industries also have consensus mechanisms, but these are achieved through complex systems such as law, accounting, and auditing.

When banks need to report to the Financial Bureau or the China Banking Regulatory Commission, the process is to reach a consensus. But this process is very difficult because the data may be processed and beautified when reporting from branch to branch. This leads to the situation that at the national level, the data shows that GDP is growing at 5%, but the actual situation may be far from that. The whole system is trying to solve the problem of data manipulation, and even fraud in serious cases.

This situation is also one of the backgrounds for the emergence of Bitcoin. If these underlying layers are changed to blockchain, we can imagine that the original government agencies, financial systems, etc. can be rebuilt, and the main thing is to reduce the contract risk.

Take Ethereum as an example. Although its TPS (transactions per second) is low, it can handle more transactions than many countries.exchangeBecause it has no risk of default, all transactions are automatically executed through smart contracts. The biggest difference between developed and underdeveloped countries in financial activities may be the spirit of contract. If people default at will, then financial activities cannot be carried out. Blockchain solves the contract problem through smart contracts. Even if there is no spirit of contract, people must abide by the contract rules without court rulings, which greatly improves the efficiency of financial circulation. Therefore, the key is not performance, but how to solve the problem of default and contract, which is the real focus of blockchain.

Coderworld: After listening to your sharing, I think it is indeed necessary to hold a firm view to be a successful founder. Given the good market conditions this year, many newcomers may be attracted to the industry. Do you have any advice for these young people or developers who have just joined the blockchain field? Especially for young people.

outprog:

My advice to young people who are just entering this field is that you will not have the experience that you should have in the traditional industry. In fact, this is not necessary because you have grown up in this emerging digital world as digital natives. Sometimes, when talking to young people, they may think that banks or other traditional institutions can naturally reach consensus like blockchain, but the actual mechanism behind it is very complicated. I think young people should maintain professionalism when interacting with the traditional world and not simply think that everything is as simple as trust-based in the blockchain world, because there are many complex issues and pitfalls. You may not need to have a deep understanding of those traditional ways of working because the model has completely changed, which means that you may no longer need to learn those traditional knowledge.

More information about everVision:

• Xiong WeiTeacher'sTwitter

• everVision: ever.vision

• Official Twitter: https://twitter.com/everPayHQ

The article comes from the Internet:Dialogue with Arweave core contributor and everVision CEO: Talking about the future division of labor among Ethereum, Bitcoin and Arweave

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